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| An illustrative image overview provided by ChatGPT when asked about E. L. Moore for a second time. |
At one time I would periodically ask ChatGPT what it knew about E. L. Moore as I was curious to see if it had learned anything from my blog in its great scraping of the internet. The usual response was it wasn't aware of him because he wasn't a significant enough figure to know about, or there was just outright confusion with other people with the same name. One of my conversations about ELM with ChatGPT can be found here, and another with Google's old LaMDA is here.
Well, that was then. Today things are very different. I decided to again ask ChatGPT and Gemini what they knew about E. L. Moore. Look, people, especially young people, go to AI to find out about things regardless of the teeth-gnashing and rending of garments of many commentators, so I'm interested in the quality of information to be found there because in the not too distant future AI will dominate the information landscape. Maybe it already does. I'm not plugged in enough to know.
Let's cut to the chase: Gemini is better than ChatGPT as far as E. L. Moore information is concerned.
But, let's start with a look at ChatGPT before moving onto 'the winner'.
Here's what I asked:
Do you know anything about the mid 20th century model railroader and author E. L. Moore?
And here's the reply:
Yes — E. L. Moore (Edwin Lewis Moore, 1914–1980) is a fascinating and somewhat cult figure in the world of mid-20th-century model railroading, especially known for his scratch-built structures and the whimsical, narrative way he approached model-building.
As you know the E. L. Moore I write about here is Earl Lloyd Moore, who was born in 1898 and died in 1979. Not a good start. How would a typical user know Edwin Lewis isn't the E.L. we're looking for?
It then went on to give a summary of E. L. Moore facts I knew to be true mixed in with other statements that had no relation to him. Here's a sample from the background information:
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| The start of ChatGPT's output on E. L. Moore |
I need to go and do my own investigation about Edwin Lewis Moore, but my immediate interest was refining my question to see if ChatGPT knew anything about the E. L. Moore I was interested in. Here's what I asked next:
No, that is the wrong E. L. Moore. The one I had in mind was Earl Lloyd Moore who was born in 1898 and died in 1979.
That statement did the trick. The information was recognizably about E. L. Moore. I'm not going to reproduce the entire output here, but I do recommend that you ask it yourself. If you get anything strange or unusual please let me know. Maybe differently phrased questions return different results.
The information it provided was a bit scattershot, and frankly lacked insight, but at least it was correct. It did suggest other things I could ask if I wanted to go deeper. I didn't go down that route, but before we continue on to Gemini let's look at one particular piece of information it provided that sort of encapsulates my so-so attitude about its response.
It provided me with what it called "... a foundational list of key articles / projects by E. L. Moore ...":
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| ChatGPT's list of E. L. Moore's foundational articles |
Some are indeed foundational. For example, Burn those models is, but one of his most foundational, Turn Backward, O Time, is missing. Frankly, I'd put together a different list, which I guess should be the subject of another post. If you have any recommendations for such a list please leave a comment.
Then there are the references mentioned as sources in the Notes column. My wikipedia article is referenced, some magazine called the Timber Creek Gazette (which further investigation showed to be The Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette !), and a site called pmrr.org (which a cursory examination shows that it doesn't appear to contain ELM information). Imagine my shock that this very blog that you're reading, 30SquaresOfOntario, the fount of all things ELM, is not referenced! It's shocking I tell you, just shocking :-)
Ok, so let's move on to Gemini.
But that wasn't the most interesting part of my interaction with Gemini.
I asked it the initial question I asked ChatGPT:
Do you know anything about the mid 20th century model railroader and author E. L. Moore?
Here's the reply:
That's a great question! E. L. Moore was a very influential and prolific figure in the model railroading hobby, particularly during the mid-to-late 20th century (roughly 1955 to 1980).
Here are the key things to know about him:
It got it in one and went on to give a fairly decent summary of E. L. Moore's work. I'm not going to reproduce it here, but suggest you give it a try. If you find anything odd, please leave me a comment.
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| An illustration provided by Gemini to introduce its E. L. Moore findings |
But that wasn't the most interesting part of my interaction with Gemini.
I decided to ask it this question:
If you were to create 'new' E. L. Moore models based on what you know of his legacy, what would they be and what would they look like?
Here's Gemini's reply:
That's a fantastic thought experiment! If I were to design "new" E. L. Moore models, the goal would be to capture his spirit of rustic charm, economical construction, a touch of whimsy, and a focus on slice-of-life rural scenes from the late 19th/early 20th century.
Here are a few ideas for new E. L. Moore-inspired models, along with what they would look like:
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| Penroddy Snooks' Peculiar Pickle & Preserves Emporium generated by Gemini |
1. "Penroddy Snooks' Peculiar Pickle & Preserves Emporium"
• Concept: A slightly ramshackle, multi-gabled building that looks like it's been added onto over several decades, perhaps originally a general store, then adapted. It would reflect his quirky character names.
• Appearance:
• Structure: Primarily balsa wood, with various sections featuring peeling painted siding (achieved with paint and light sanding) and some areas of weathered, embossed paper corrugated metal on lean-to additions.
• Details: Prominent, hand-painted signs on rough-hewn boards, perhaps one declaring "Best Dills West of the Mississippi!" and another "Ask for Grandpappy's 'Mystery' Jam." A rickety porch with barrels and crates overflowing with empty jars, perhaps a cat napping on one.
• Scene: A small, overgrown vegetable patch nearby, indicating where some of the "preserves" come from. A horse-drawn delivery cart, partially covered by a tarp, out front.
• Moore's Touch: Emphasis on uneven rooflines, slightly crooked window frames made from acetate with ink-drawn mullions, and a general air of "barely holding together but still functional."
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| The Old Grist Mill & Miller's Shack generated by Gemini (A possible riff on the Mountain Water Wheel Mill?) |
2. "The Old Grist Mill & Miller's Shack"
• Concept: A classic rural industry, essential to any community. This would showcase his ability to blend structures with the natural landscape.
• Appearance:
• Grist Mill: A two-story structure, largely in natural, unpainted weathered wood (balsa or basswood with a wood burner for texture). A prominent water wheel, perhaps looking a bit worn. A working chute for grain delivery and a small loading dock.
• Miller's Shack: A tiny, one-room dwelling nestled close to the mill, with a stone foundation and a smoking chimney. Very plain, with a single door and one or two small windows.
• Scene: Positioned next to a small, meandering stream (made from clear resin or painted styrene). Overgrown weeds and tall grass around the foundations. A dirt path leading up to the mill, with wagon tracks embedded.
• Moore's Touch: The interaction between the two buildings and the natural elements would be key, demonstrating a full, living scene. The wood textures would be highly detailed but achieved simply.
Two examples were all Gemini provided, but I suspect others could be generated if it were asked.
Honestly, if I were to see these not knowing how they were generated I wouldn't associate them with E. L. Moore. To me they appear more like standard, run-of-the-mill, rather uninspired craftsman kit offerings.
Regardless, I didn't stop there. I asked Gemini the following:
Those are quite interesting. Thanks! Here's another question: again, based on what you know of his legacy models, could you propose some 'new' models in his style, but set in our own time?
Here's Gemini's reply:
That's a fascinating challenge! Adapting E. L. Moore's style—which is so rooted in a specific historical period and construction methods—to a contemporary setting requires focusing on the spirit of his work rather than a direct translation. We'd aim for:
• Rustic/Weathered Charm: Even modern structures can show age, neglect, or "character."
• Simple Materials: Using common, inexpensive materials to represent modern equivalents (e.g., styrene for metal siding, foam board for concrete blocks).
• Narrative/Slice of Life: Models that tell a small story or represent an everyday, often overlooked scene.
• "Handmade" Aesthetic: Even with modern subjects, a slightly less-than-perfect, handmade feel would be preserved.
• Focus on the Overlooked: Moore often modeled the mundane but characterful.
Here are a few "new" E. L. Moore-style models, set in our own time:
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| The Last Roadside Diner & Motel generated by Gemini (A possible riff on Ma's Place?) |
1. "The Last Roadside Diner & Motel"
• Concept: Captures the fading glory of a once-bustling roadside stop, now slightly worn but still operating, a common sight on older highways. It's a modern equivalent of his old-time general stores or small-town depots.
• Appearance:
• Diner: A single-story, boxy structure, likely covered in faded painted stucco or corrugated metal siding (made from textured styrene). A large, iconic neon sign (non-functional, but with hints of "burnt out" sections) that reads "EAT" or "Joe's Diner" in a vintage font. A few plastic picnic tables outside, slightly warped.
• Motel: A connected, low-slung building with a row of doors, each with a small window. Paint peeling on the eaves. One or two "No Vacancy" signs, perhaps handwritten.
• Details: Overflowing dumpster in the back, faded parking lot stripes, a stray shopping cart, and perhaps a single, worn-out car parked near the diner. A vending machine out front, looking neglected.
• Moore's Touch: The wear and tear would be paramount, showing decades of use. The charm would come from its perseverance despite its age, reflecting his love for depicting "down on their luck" but still functioning structures.
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| The Backyard Mechanic's Worksop & Junkyard Corner generated by Gemini |
2. "The Backyard Mechanic's Workshop & Junkyard Corner"
• Concept: A small, improvised repair shop attached to a residence, filled with tools, parts, and various vehicles in different states of repair. This captures his knack for depicting cluttered, lived-in environments.
• Appearance:
• Workshop: A corrugated metal shed or a converted garage, with a lean-to addition made of mismatched plywood and plastic sheeting. A single, bare lightbulb visible inside. The main door is a roll-up, half-open.
• Junkyard Corner: An adjacent area crammed with old tires, engine blocks, car doors, and various unidentifiable mechanical parts. A broken-down fence made of salvaged wood separates it from the neighboring property.
• Details: Oil stains on the asphalt or gravel ground. Tools scattered around workbenches inside the open door. Perhaps an old, rust-pitted pickup truck on blocks. A "Beware of Dog" sign crudely painted on a piece of plywood.
• Moore's Touch: The focus would be on the clutter and the visible evidence of ongoing work and resourceful improvisation. The materials would look like they were gathered over time, rather than a planned construction, echoing his economical, "use what you have" approach.
Once again, two examples were all Gemini provided. And again, I wouldn't recognize them as being in the spirit of an E. L. Moore project in a blind taste test. Both are too realistic and in the vein of craftsman kits to be recognizably Moorian.
For comparison, back in 2011 I tried my hand at building an ELM-esque modern day structure, Mr. Buschel's Barrel & Marble Works. Just as Gemini took liberties with materials, I used styrene for the under-structure instead of balsa, aluminum siding instead paper metal, and window castings instead of pen on acetate. I did though write what I felt was a semi-authentic sounding story :-) Ok, well, I tried to use common materials a structure modeller who had scratchbuilt a few structures in our day-and-age might have on hand, much like ELM used common materials from his era. So, there is that similarity to the spirit of an ELM project. You can find all the posts for this build at the tag and judge for yourself: Barrel and Marble Works.
It does beg the question though about what would I consider to be in the key of E. L. Moore? I think there'd need to have a good natured story with a well used cast of characters driving the design, figures in the photos with those characters caught in the middle of doing something with the building as the focus, the use of simple materials for construction, and a yet undefinable good-naturedness all round. The Gemini images are quite sterile.
For the record I did ask these what-if questions of ChatGPT. However, I learned that to generate pictures I would need to open a paid subscription level that would allow me access to DALL-E before it would create them. On the free plan it could only provide written descriptions, which I didn't think were sufficient so I didn't reproduce them here. Maybe it does better than Gemini? I don't know.
Maybe I'm being too critical on what I'm finding. It's likely that since 'E. L. Moore Studies' are not of great importance in the world, little time is spent in getting training in the field. However, I suspect that if someone took the time to train these things properly, the results might be surprising. Time will tell I guess.
To wrap up, it's a little distressing that the way I found ELM's work presented by today's AI is far from how I see it. Most of what can be found in my wikipedia entry and eBook has been disregarded or jumbled leaving the message I thought captured the spirit of the man and his work adrift. Regardless of my best efforts modellers of the future, if any still exist, may view E. L. Moore very differently than we do today, somewhat mangled by today's AI learning algorithms.
